Posts by moggy lover

23

Undeserved kindness versus Grace - does it matter?

by misspeaches in

just wondering if its just me or not.... does it matter to anyone else that the wtbts changed the word grace to undeserved kindness in the nwt?

in my opinion having changed it to undeserved kindness they use this as a way to guilt trip people into always doing more more more!

where as grace is just grace.

moggy lover

DocBob:Cracker post that! Don't those clowns at WT HQ have such a thing as a thesaurus? Could'nt they find some synonym for "diserving ones"? I mean how about "needy ones"? or "worthy ones"? I suppose "equitable ones" would be stetching their limited intellects to breaking.

Actually, O21 had a good point which I had never considered. Even when I was a JW. The expression "undeserved kindness" has not weaved its way into WT patois, like for instance, "system of things" or "memorial emblems" or "FDS" etc. Where a Christian would not hesitate to employ a phrase such as:"By God's grace my son survived his operation" No JW in a similar situation would say "By Jehovah's Underserved Kindness ...." As far as I can remember, the only time I would have used the expression was when I was quoting WT literature.

It goes to demonstate that the term is merely viewed by the R&F as a theological embellishment to a standard doctrinal belief, empty, in a real and personal sense, of any meaning

Cheers

23

Undeserved kindness versus Grace - does it matter?

by misspeaches in

just wondering if its just me or not.... does it matter to anyone else that the wtbts changed the word grace to undeserved kindness in the nwt?

in my opinion having changed it to undeserved kindness they use this as a way to guilt trip people into always doing more more more!

where as grace is just grace.

moggy lover

I suppose in a very strict sense it may not be entirely wrong to substitute the WTS rendering of "underserved kindness" for the simple word "grace" The WT attitude of Freddie Flintstone Franz was: Why use one word to mean something when two or more can make it sound more pompous. Why make something simple when it is so simple to make it complicated.

The expression "Undeserved Kindness" is the expression that Franz used to render the Greek word "Charis" While it may not be inaccurate to translate the Greek word this way, it does not in any way make the translation any more accurate. I say this for at least two reasons:

1 It is'nt strictly correct to call "Charis" something that is "undeserved", because most lexicons affirm that the underlying idea behind the term is that of something being "Unmerited" - ie something that we have not, indeed cannot, earn.

2 The attribute of God displayed in the bestowing of "Charis" on us, goes beyond simply being "Kindness" It displays a deep love that He has for His human creation in that He is willing to grant them favours in order for them to become reconciled to Him. That is why lexicons describe "Charis" as a "Favour" rather than a "kindness" The Enc Of Bible Words [pg 317] describes "Charis'' this way: "It means a gracious favour or benefit bestowed"

Therefore, I submit that if the WTS Bible wanted to display a leaning to "accuracy" they would have been better off using the expression "Unmerited Favour" [The Amplified Bible suggests: "Spiritual favour and blessing", as does Prof Chas B Williams in his translation. The Simple English Bible has "Gracious Love"]

Anyway, there is a perfectly adequate one-word translation that we could use - Grace - which is why most intelligible versions do so.

Besides, as lighthouse 1956 has so eloquently pointed out, "It's so much easier to sing about Grace!!"

Cheers

20

Rutherford was a drunk and an adulterer?

by Surreptitious in

i've heard this mentioned here and there.

can it be proven?

moggy lover

Try going into the "Best of" section of JWD Forum by Lady Lee.

The very first post is dedicated to information about "Judge" Rutherford. Packed with information that is pure dynamite!!

Cheers

13

Comeback from witness...interesting

by integ in

i asked my uncle elder about the scripture that says; "keep testing to make sure you are in the faith" or something to that effect, to kind of try to explain why i have the audacity to question watchtower doctrine.

his response was something i guess i knew, but had forgotten.."that doesn't mean to keep testing the teachings of the faithful slave, it means that we need to keep testing 'ourselves' to make sure we are still faithful to gods' organization".

i had forgotten the spin on that scripture, and all i could do was shake my head and say "okay, whatever".

moggy lover

Actually, I think the WTS goofed on this one.[2Cor 13:5] If they advise the "OS" to keep testing themselves then they've got the wrong group. Why?

Because, the ones who are advised to do this "testing" are the ones who will "live TOGETHER with him" [2 Cor 13:4] Last time I checked, these were only the "disjointed anointed" It Is THEY who should be doing the testing, not the poor saps who follow them.

Ironically, as Ray Franz points out in COC, many GB members actually disagree with several doctrines of the WTS. I'm pretty sure that I read that the late Albert Schroeder was a maverick in this regard. So in fact these are the ones who would fail the test!!

Cheers

23

Is the hurricane in Australia affecting anyone posting here ?

by troubled mind in

i worry about you boys down under.......

moggy lover

Hang in there, wombat, mate,

[He says... comfortably ensconced in Perth and playing with his puss...y]

But seriously, mate, hope things are OK withya

Cheers

17

Will many prayers work better than just one prayer?

by JH in

jw
friends

did you honestly believe that praying for someone else or someone praying for you would have a better chance of working than just the person praying alone for himself?.

gee, why would god need many people to pray for one person?

isn't one prayer honest enough?

moggy lover

Hi, JH, I'm sorry but I must admit that I simply don't know the answer to your question.

All I can say is that a Christian believes prayer to be a gift from God. And since Christianity is a communal fellowship of the many, as opposed to a restricted, even exclusive membership, it is as much a communal activity as it is a deeply private affair.

The Pauline epistles were written by a man who was deeply committed to prayer. He is constantly breaking out into thanksgiving, adoration, petition, and doxology, A good summary of Paul's teaching on prayer is found at 1Tim 2:1-8.

Christianity has often been described not, as a religion, but a relationship. Not just a relationship of the individual, but the wider community of believers at large to God. As Paul shows at vs 8 of the above mentioned text, the prayers of the many evidently are as effective, if not more so, than that of an individual. Why? Dunno. Paul did'nt elaborate. He merely recommended.

Cheers

18

What is Love?

by Soapydish in

i've become confused w/love in these past two years.

my wife says she's polyamorous.

that opened my eyes to a whole way of seeing things.

moggy lover

Sorry, mate. Dunno what polyamorous is.

It's not what I think it is is it? If it is then I'll have what you're having!!!

Cheers

21

On the Fade

by parlay in

raised in the org, baptized 27 years, elder 8 years.

wouldn't kiss butt, called a spade a spade with elders, co's and do's.

currently on the fade.

moggy lover

Hi, Parlay, and you Lady Liberty and Welcome to our new friends and hope you stay long.

With such a growing "Cloud of witnesses", how can we lose?

Cheers

58

Did Satan lie?

by moomanchu in

god said ,.

you shall not eat from it or touch it,.

the serpent said to the woman,.

moggy lover

Actually, moomanchu You do have a point. Yep Satan lied, but what's more, so does the GB today. Lets ''reason'' on this OK? Boy! do the JWs hate it when we use their own buzz words back on them.

What did Satan promise Adam and Eve? That they could live forever on a paradise earth!!

What does the GB promise recruits to their organisation? All you have to do is look at the opening pages of their recruiting manuals. Consistently, in every one of these books [Truth book, Knowledge Book, I have'nt seen their latest venture something about what the Bible really teaches] is prominently displayed a sylized conventional picture of a fruitful "paradise " earth [Complete with smoothly shaved chins and closely cropped hair and buttons on shirts and zippers for flys - all somehow courtesy of a smog free atmosphere and nary a smokestack in sight]

In fact, according to their own vaunted claims their most sucessful recruiting manual ever was - yup - you guessed it. "You CAN Live Forever in Paradise on Earth" Not maybe. Not we hope so. Not we can only try. Oh no. It had to be dogmatic, like Satan You Can Can Can......lies... lies....

Just as Satan was sucessful in Eden, so also he is sucessful today when his servants follow his example so closely.

I rest my case.

Cheers.

15

Is Jesus Mediator for the Great Crowd's prayers?

by jwfacts in

the watchtower makes the claim that jesus is only mediator for the 144,000 because only they are in the new covenant.

however i was looking on wikipedia.org and there is a statement that the watchtower does teach that jesus is mediator for the prayers of the great crowd.

does anyone know if this is correct?

moggy lover

Yes to all statements.

This begs the question that you raised: How the bloody hell can the JWs possibly pray "in and through the name of Jesus"? Evidently by being "associated" with the "anointed" the "benefits" of this mediatorship flows down onto them. In his book COC, Ray Franz adresses this dilemma. On pg 234 [that is in my edition the 85 revised edition. Pages may be different in other editions] he suggests that the WTS believs that there is a meaningful difference in being a mediator, and being "interested" in the Other Sheep. Which means that despite the fact that He does not mediate on their behalf, He is still "interested" in them.

Yeah right

Cheers